APR 4 > AUG 15

Weekly discussion: share your experiences & ideas

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Week 9: Should we broaden the definition of student achievement?

This Week's Guest:

Sean Kershaw

Citizens League has been considering for some time whether to engage citizens in developing strategies that would broaden the definition of student achievement. Your work in this project will have a significant impact on our decision, and on how we would set up the effort. After reading through your discussions, I want to thank you very much for your thinking and for your openness to growth and learning throughout the process.

Ted Kolderie, former Executive Director of Citizens League and founder of Education|Evolving recently wrote this: "The traditional concept of performance focuses on math and English-language arts. Assessment does not search aggressively for knowledge or abilities beyond the academic that might be learned outside formal school. It focuses on what can be quantified. And—because the low levels of learning now press educators so hard to 'close the learning gap'—it emphasizes ‘proficiency’. It seems less interested in individual performance: The term 'all students' appears a lot; the standards are 'common' standards."

My questions for you follow:

Should we, as a state and as a nation, broaden the definition of student achievement? Please explain why or why not.
What are the most important things (three or more) for people who have never thought about the first question to consider? Why are these the most important?
Are there points you learned or raised questions about here that you wish more people knew about?
How, if at all, has your thinking changed over the course of your work on this project?
What, if anything, have you learned about your own capacity for civic participation and active citizenship from being a part of this dialogue?

Student Commentator Responses:

Marie S.

If I may reframe the question: I can’t necessarily say that we should broaden the definition of achievement because there doesn’t seem to be a universal definition in the first place—it would be like trying to broaden the definition of love or beauty. But I do think, in deference to its highly subjective definition, we should stop using the word achievement as a euphemism for test scores and occasionally bachelor’s degrees. Viewing these things as synonymous is already harming our nation. It’s only a question of how long it will be before we are forced to make drastic changes.
The idea of the opportunity gap as discussed in week 7. Everyone performing at the same level in school despite any one student’s background is certainly a nice idea. But it’s a bit like holding a race wherein some runners start a mile from the finish line and others start only a half mile from it, but all are expected to cross the finish line at the same time. I’m convinced that a lot of the world’s problems stem from the human tendency to view a thing independently of its context and this is no exception. The ripple effects of high-stakes testing are more harmful than the test itself, and are most harmful to those the test was (presumably) meant to help. Laws such as No Child Left Behind continue to exist because at first blush they seem idealistic and unequivocally correct. If we switched tomorrow to a system and culture of education based on mutual respect between educator and student, we would realize the true potential of all young people.
The only one I haven’t already mentioned above is the manufactured nature of adolescence, as discussed in Week 3. Now that the initial shock of the question has worn off and I’ve had some time to turn it over in my head, I feel gypped. As things stand, I can’t say what kind of person I would be today if I hadn’t been raised (by my culture more than my parents) to feel stupid and cowed simply because of my age, but I would like to know. Ironically, young people will need older adults to bolster the idea if it is to gain widespread credibility; otherwise we would be too easily written off as “teenagers who think they know everything.” (Actions speak louder than words, I hear you cry. But most teenagers who act like adults are simply labeled “exceptional”.)
While I never explicitly believed in the idea of “college for all”, I hadn’t explicitly questioned it either prior to this discussion. I am very much the stereotypical book-smart dweeb and probably couldn’t hack it anywhere but a four-year college, so the inherent value of any degree I might receive there has been a counterintuitive and occasionally disquieting question to ponder.
I have always considered myself an apathetic and inarticulate person, and it took a lot of prodding from my teachers to apply for a lead commentator slot. I’ve discovered that I do, in fact, have ideas—enough to routinely exceed and ignore word limits— and I can (occasionally) convey them effectively. And even though I’ve been bemoaning the state of education for years now and claim to be tired of it, I can still get mad enough about questions of public policy and pedagogy that I’m all but banging my shoe on the table.

Molly M.

I do believe that the United States should broaden the definition of student achievement, considering the fact that achievement can be measured upon many different mediums. Currently society measures achievement through standardized test scores and performance in school, however, as we have declared through our posts there is definitely more that a student is capable of that is considered “achievement.” Achievement is not necessarily in reference to what is learned in the classroom. Achievement can pertain to one’s success depending on their personal values. I believe achievement is defined as the level of “success” one reaches, at the point where they are happy.
What people need to take into consideration in reference to the definition of achievement, is that there is more than what is learned in the classroom that a student is capable of, as I had previously stated. Also, for people who have not considered the first question, I believe it is important for them to be aware of the achievement gap and that it impacts EVERY student in the education system. Furthermore, it is important for people to understand that a student’s achievement can be affected as soon as they enter school. This is a concept that should be understood.
I believe every citizen in the country deserves to hear out the issues pertaining to achievement and the education system. I wish people could understand that youth have the power to collaborate their ideas on a website like this and express their opinions on what is affecting each and every one of us. I am very proud to explain to people what I do on this website and answer to the question, “What exactly IS the achievement gap?”
This project has definitely expanded my mind while I read everybody’s different inputs and opinions. After this project, I have definitely become more passionate about this topic and I am hoping to continue on with future projects pertaining to student achievement in the future.
My capacity for civic engagement has definitely grown throughout this project. It has made me more aware as a citizen, the voice I have as youth in this country. Youth are important assets to our nation, it’s up to us to take the initiative to speak up and take action on issues that are important to us.

Semeo D.

No. I don't think we should broaden any sort of definition for achievment. I think that'll only create problems in trying to eliminate the issue of student's "underachieving" or something similar.
To explain my answer to the first question, I think something important to consider is that the larger a definition of acheivement becomes the more difficult it will be to match that definition. Acheivement is not some physical object you can hold in your hand to represent itself, and thus define itself. Achievement is a concept, and defining a concept is like explaining a joke, it ruins the entire point of it or destroys the quality of that concept. I think it is most important for each of us individuals to have our own concept of achievement as (for many of us) it is one of the greatest feelings one can have and that feeling of acheivement leads one to want to continue achieving in larger fields and motivates that person onto success. If achivement is to be broadly defined at all it should only be the feeling of accomplishment to one's end.
I feel in my life I have had plenty of disscussions concerning acheivement, true learning, and success. But like all topics of disscussion I think many people could benefit from beinig exposed to it.
My thinking hasn't largely changed at all.
I can't really think of an answer to this question now to be honest.

Sara W.

I think we should broaden the definition of student achievement, but not in the case of standardized tests. Standardized tests are there to make sure students are learning the curriculum, and I think to discount those tests would make everything much more complicated. Millions of kids are in school, how do you take each one individually and measure their specific achievement? It is too large a task. Instead, I think we should make sure each kid knows their options, and if they know what they want to go into, make that more possible. So have technical degrees and training in high school, encourage other options as career paths, like technicians, etc. "Achievement" can be learning the basic skills we all must learn (basic math, english, etc) but "achievement" should NOT be a four year college degree. Obviously college grads don't make the world go round, and a college degree does not necessarily entail a happy, successful life. College is not the be all, end all, but rather an option for those who would like to pursue it.
Important things to consider would be what I said earlier, college is not the only option, and not even the right option for many people. Schools should be less about making it into a national university and more about finding a career that's right for you, your family, your desires/aspirations, and the way you can contribute to society.
Regarding the education gap, I really feel strongly that those affected by it are a product of culture, and not always of race, financial situation, etc. Race/ethnicity has nothing to do with intelligence, so these colored kids are not less smart, or less motivated, I just feel that maybe it's not as valued in their communities.
I feel like a learned a lot about education that is not a four year degree, and how that is right for some people, and that has definitely changed my thinking.
I learned that these are big things to consider, and that no wonder there are so many problems regarding education, it's such a confusing thing. You can't judge the people who devise the system too harshly, it seems there is never enough money, time, and energy to give all students a great education. I'm not saying it's possible, but I really admire the people who work in our schools, even if its not perfect. I also learned I really enjoy this, even if it makes me mad sometimes, maybe that's a good motivator? Hahah.

Miriam O.

Student achievement is when you get good grades and pass your classes. Broaden means when you take what you learned and use it in your community by sharing and contributing. So I would say we should keep it so the students that learn stuff can use it in the future and take action. Lots of the people also say that college can be the only way but no you have to try your hardest so you can get your highest achievement and make college the only way.
I think the most important thing is first the students needs to learn the basics Math, English, Science etc. .. . . because people say college is the only way but first you have to learn and see if you have achieve it and then use it. Schools try to find the best career for you, your peers, and your friends and first you just have to see what you want first. Also every student has achieve even though they think they haven’t they have because through their life they have done something good and that success.
I think it would be that every student can get a diploma doesn’t matter what student it is anybody can get it. I want to make it clear that everybody is equal Whites, Blacks, Mexicans, Asians, Pacific Islanders, and others are equal. Some people think that one type of people are the smartest or the dumbest but not true everybody is equal and anybody can get a diploma and the same right. All around the world students are put down because of their skin color and they think they can’t achieve because they are different but anybody can get the right and achieve. They all have to work together to change and take action.
My thinking has changed a lot because I thought only some people can achieve because how they show it. But I learned that everybody has achieved in something and it’s a great thing. Also there is still time for people to achieve and make a difference.
My capacity for civic has grown a lot. I learned that everybody has different opinions and insights about student achievement. I learned a lot about the teens and how they have the right to change reality and they have to speak up and start talking about what they learned and know to the people outside of the box. It’s up to us to speak up and start working with the stuff that we care about and take it to action. This project has helped me a lot and made my understanding of student achievement the highest level I could take it, and share it with different people that care to and want to take it to action.

Kumar F. K.

This is a tough question to answer because it is so broad, but yes, we should broaden the definition of student achievement. The big problem I see is that not all students are the same. We aren't robots and can't all be judged on the same scale--we aren't all either 'good' or 'bad.' We aren't able to do exactly the same thing as the next person. The definition of student achievement should be more individualized.
I think the most important thing for people to think about is to ask themselves if all people have the same exact ability. Do people all have the same exact ability in sports? No, so why would they have the same exact ability in terms of their learing? Also, another thing that people need to think about how one system is going to apply to everyone it effects, not just themselves. Although it would be great if we could all have our own special school just for us, that is never going to happen, so everyone needs to make some compromises. Finally, eveyone needs to cooperate a little better. When students, parents, teachers, and school officials can't get along and work together, nothing gets done. I often find myself frustrated with how teachers don't understand my schedule and what I need, and the same is true with parents and teachers sometimes.
I wish more people knew that segregation was still present in schools. Everyone thinks that school segregation was abolished back in the 1950's with Brown v. Board of Education, and in the legal sense it was. But in the socioeeconomic sense, segregation is still a brutal reality in many school systems.
I have always been one to share my opinions on topics I care about, and this discussion has been no different. Although it has been interesting to hear other people's opinions, mine has stayed the same.
I think that is is really great to know that even as a teenager, my opinion matters, and my voice is actually heard. Too often young people are regarded as people who are unintelligent and aren't smart enough to make their own desicions, and I want to change that.

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by Miriam O. on Jul 28, 2011 @ 7:42am

Oh i almost forgot . . . "drinking" is really bad and horrible because everytime you drink your brain cells start to damage and your brain starts to develop as a little kid and you start loosing your memory. So if you are like 20 year old guy and you been drinking you will act like a 16 year OLD KID. An you don't want that do you??!?! So again taking a Health class in school at a younger age will pervent you by doing these things. $)

by Miriam O. on Jul 28, 2011 @ 7:18am

Also when i say that every student should take a health class, they should learn that smoking and using drugs is not healthy. I learn this in school this pass year and its a very big problem for teens, they think its cool but really they are just shortening their life, and killing their lungs. . . . so taking a Health class is very important every student is taking it right now they just don't know it. . . $)

by Nora Kane on Jul 27, 2011 @ 5:57pm

I agree with Miriam that health should also be taught in schools. Nutrition and healthy lifestyles should be introduced while kids are still in elementary school. I believe more advanced health should be taught in middle school and in the first year or two of high school. At my middle school we did not have any sort of health class, mandatory or otherwise, which I think was a mistake. Health 1 is offered at my high school starting freshman year but you cannot take health 2 until Junior year. Most students end up taking health 2 online because there is not enough time in school to fill the rest of the requirements by the time junior year comes around.

by Miriam O. on Jul 27, 2011 @ 9:36am

To Stacy's question. . .

1, I think every student should learn (math, history, language arts, and science) these are all the things i have been learning in school too. Also a health class so they can be healthy and active when they start going up and not be fat and lazy. Alos i agree with Nora that everybody should learn a language, i say Spanish i speak spanish and lots of people do also and it will be a very good avantage in the future.

2. This is what my older brother says, (as an activist for Social Justice in Educaiton, he quotes Paulo Freirie) "

IT is only when the oppressed find the oppressor out and become involved in the organized struggle for their liberation that they begin to believe in themselves. This discovery cannot be purely intellectual but must involve action; nor can it be limited to mere activism, but must include serious reflection: only then will it be a praxis.

Critical and liberating dialogue, which presupposes action, must be carried on with the oppressed at whatever the stage of their struggle for liberation. The content of that dialogue can and should vary in accordance with historical conditions and the level at which the oppressed perceive reality. But to substitute monologue, slogans, and communiqués for dialogue is to attempt to liberate the oppressed with the instruments of domestication. Attempting to liberate the oppressed without their reflective participation in the act of liberation is to treat them as objects which must be saved from a burning building: it is to lead them into the populist pitfall and transform them into masses which can be manipulated.

At all stages of their liberation, the oppressed must see themselves as women and men engaged in the ontological and historical vacation of becoming more fully human. Reflection and action, become imperative when one does not erroneously attempt to dichotomize the content of humanity from its historical form.

The insistence that the oppressed engage in reflection on their concrete situation is not a call to armchair revolution. ON the contrary, reflection—true reflection – leads to action. On the other hand when the situation calls for action, that action will constitute an authentic praxis only if its consequences become the object of critical reflection.

The struggle begins with men’s recognition that they have been destroyed. Propaganda, management, manipulation – all arms of domination – cannot be the instruments of their rehumanization. The only effective instrument is a humanizing pedagogy in which the revolution leadership establishes a permanent relation of dialogue with the oppressed. In a humanizing pedagogy the method ceases to be an instrument by which the teachers can manipulate the students, because it expresses the consciousness of the students themselves.

Teachers and students, co-intent on reality, are both Subjects (those who know and act, in contrast to objects, which are known and acted upon), not only in the task of unveiling that reality, and thereby coming to know it critically, but in the task of re-creating that knowledge. As they attain this knowledge of reality through common reflection and action, they discover themselves as its permanent re-creators. In this way, the presence of the oppressed in the struggle for their liberation will be what should: not pseudo-participation, but committed involvement."

he continues ...

Banking concept of education: instead of communicating, the teacher issues communiqués and makes deposits which the students patiently receive, memorize and repeat. In which the scope of action allowed to the students extends only as far as receiving, filing and storing the deposits. They do, it is true, have a opportunity to become collectors or cataloguers of the things they store. But in the last analysis, it is the people themselves who are filed away through the lack of creativity, transformation, and knowledge in this misguided system. For apart of the inquiry, apart from the praxis (reflection and action), individuals cannot be truly human. Knowledge emerges only through invention and re-invention, through the restless, and impatient, continuing, hopeful inquiry human beings pursue in the world, and the world, and with each other.

The more students work at storing the deposits entrusted to them, the less they develop the critical consciousness which would result from their intervention in the world as transformers of that world. The more completely they accept the passive role imposed on them, the more they tend simply to adapt to the world as it is and to the fragmented view of reality deposited in them. Such system also attempts to control thinking and action, leads women and men to adjust to the world, and inhibits their creative power.

IT is only when the oppressed find the oppressor out and become involved in the organized struggle for their liberation that they begin to believe in themselves. This discovery cannot be purely intellectual but must involve action. Teachers and students, co-intent on reality, are both Subjects (those who know and act, in contrast to objects, which are known and acted upon), not only in the task of unveiling that reality, and thereby coming to know it critically, but in the task of re-creating that knowledge. As they attain this knowledge of reality through common reflection and action, they discover themselves as its permanent re-creators. In this way, the presence of the oppressed in the struggle for their liberation will be what should: not pseudo-participation, but committed involvement.

This movement of inquiry must be directed towards humanization—the people’s historical vocation. The pursuit of full humanity, however cannot be carried out in isolation or individualism, but only in fellowship and solidarity."

ps. my brother Joel Lehi Organista is 19 and he wrote a book titled, Social Justice in Educación: My Reality . he talks about the oppressive and unhealthy Achievement culture, racism, paradigm shift of education and emancipation through holistic education, authenitc relationships with the power of vulnerabitly and true empowerment in the families.

by Nora Kane on Jul 15, 2011 @ 9:03am

I believe it is important for all students to have basic knowledge of the core subjects (english, math, science and history). To me it's also important to learn another language (especially spanish since so many people in the U.S speak spanish as their first language) but for some people languages just don't click. Starting to teach kids languages at a young age could help with that.

In one of our previous discussions we talked about aptitude testing. That could be used to help students move from basic skills to a focus in subjects they are passionate about. If, say part way through eight grade, students were given aptitude tests then based on the results they could choose whether to go into a mainstream high school that continued to focus on the core subjects with electives, or to go into a specialized high school, like science and technology, or arts, etc.

by Miriam O. on Jul 15, 2011 @ 8:08am

Thank you lindsey you did answer my question i was just curious of what other people would think and if people do really care.

by Stacy Becker on Jul 15, 2011 @ 5:48am

Hey everybody, great insights, but I want to push you a bit more, especially based on Kumar's and Marie's comments.

Here's an article from the New York Times based on a book called The Start-Up of You, which says that employers "are all looking for the same kind of people — people who not only have the critical thinking skills to do the value-adding jobs that technology can’t, but also people who can invent, adapt and reinvent their jobs every day, in a market that changes faster than ever."

Let's combine this idea with Kumar's comment that people have differing abilities. If you imagine various bell curves of talents-- athleticism, intellectual abilities, emotional intelligence, artistic abilities and so on, we can start to imagine thousands of "combinations" of these abilities in people. How does a student come to understand, build on and leverage these native abilities? Where does school fit into this?-- after all, school is built on a mass production model where everybody is treated the same. I think, for example Marie, that it is a downright sin that you have considered yourself to be "an apathetic and inarticulate person." Good for your current teachers, but not good for your previous teachers.

Here's my question: in the future, where success in employment I believe will require self-knowledge and courage-

1. What skills must EVERY student acquire from K-12?

2. What is the learning process which provides BOTH these fundamental skills and enables students to differentiate themselves according to their passions and talents?

by Lindsey Alexander on Jul 13, 2011 @ 5:21pm

Miriam, I think yours is an important question. I personally know a lot of people who care what you all think about whether or not the definition of achievement should be broadened. There were education leaders across the country who were following the online discussion and interested in what you all had to say (and who will be interested in the final report). There is a lot of debate about the sorts of outcomes we want our K-12 schools to produce and a lot of this debate centers around innovation, but a pretty traditional definition of "achievement." The impetus behind this project was to back up and ask whether we think that traditional definition is still meeting our needs or perhaps we should expand it to reflect new realities (web-based learning, new research on adolescence, workforce trends, etc.) if we are to truly innovate our K-12 system.

Another point I would make is that Students Speak out is all about bringing teen voices into policy discussions authentically - this means we ask you to weigh in when we know there is the opportunity for you to influence the policy conversation. The fact is your thoughts do matter - a lot. Who knows better than teens whether or not the definition should be broadened? (No one, I would argue.) You all are the ones on the front lines of the issue, experiencing the effects of the traditional definition everyday.

I don't know if this answers your question or not, but there is great value in having this discussion and there have been many people who have listened to what you all have had to say. Stay tuned, too - I think you'll see the final report might help connect a few more of the dots.

by Molly Messner on Jun 29, 2011 @ 4:55pm

The people that do not care, are the ones that are mis/uninformed! These people that seem 'uninterested' do not believe that this issue impacts them directly therefore find no reason to continue in their understanding. That is why it is necessary for people to be educated on the concept of achievement and how it can change the way society functions for the future!!

by Miriam O. on Jun 29, 2011 @ 6:40am

This is for anybody. . .

.Do you think that people really care if they broaden the definition of student achievement?!?!?!?